[This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. Re-publication or re-distribution of "Useless Information" content, in any form whatsoever, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent.] USELESS INFORMATION The Move Mailing List Digest Issue #382 August 26, 2002 In this issue: * From ELO to The Move (backwards) (cont.) * Cheap Trick sounds like... * ELO & Move CD reissues (cont.) ============================================================== To POST TO THE LIST: Send an e-mail to: move-list@eskimo.com Move List Info & Archives: http://www.eskimo.com/~noanswer/movelist.html Join the ELO List: http://www.eskimo.com/~noanswer/showdown.html Other official websites: The Move: http://www.themoveonline.com Roy Wood: http://www.roywood.co.uk Face The Music (for all ELO & related news): http://www.ftmusic.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send an e-mail to move-digest-request@eskimo.com with the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes) in the subject line ============================================================== Subject: Re: From ELO to The Move (backwards) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:31:29 -0700 From: Lee Lynn wrote > I would imagine a lot of Move fans in the UK cannot understand why so > many of us in the U.S. (and other musically deprived countries) were > so late in catching on.>> Even with US regional radio having a lot of freedom in the '60s, not every deserving record got played. I do have an aircheck from a Los Angeles radio station where they played "I Can Hear The Grass Grow" but I'll make the assumption it may have been one of the only times it was spun out here. Regarding "Do Ya," one of the clever FM jocks in Tucson edited both the ELO and Move version together. I can't imagine how much you must have been 'moved' hearing "Message From The Country" as your first Move track. That song gives me chills. I actually spin most Saturdays to a mostly younger LA mainstream type crowd. Even had one greaser type fellow come up and ask what it was, and he commented that the song was great! So yeah, my big burning record collector nerd question is why the "Chinatown" single came out on MGM. Was there plans for the band to release more records on that label or was it just a one-off? Is it promo only or was there ever a stock copy? Best Lee www.dionysusrecords.com ********** Subject: Cheap Trick Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:31:47 -0700 From: GeorMarin just a quick note. has anyone ever noticed how many songs by cheap trick have guitar licks straight out of the move? some songs even sound like move recordings. just curious. george mariner (philly) ********** Subject: Re: Cheap Trick Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 23:00:53 -0700 From: Joe Ramsey GeorMarin@aol.com wrote: > > just a quick note. has anyone ever noticed how many songs by cheap > trick have guitar licks straight out of the move? some songs even > sound like move recordings. just curious. Hey George, How about the song by Cheap Trick that sounds EXACTLY like "Psycho Daisies" by the Yardbirds - it has a different name... can't remember it (yeah yeah, the memories the second thing to go), but it claims to be created by Cheap Trick (Holy Led Zeppelin, Batman!). Whenever anyone tells me a band sounds like The Move, the group inevitably sounds more like Cheap Trick. Never fails. Nobody sounds like The Move. ********** Subject: Re: ELO & Move CD reissues Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:48:49 -0700 From: Philip Cohen [Cross-posted from the ELO List] (first of all,to Ms.Hoskins,I shall say that this will be my final communication to the ELO & Move lists.Once I receive your next digests, which explain the unsubscribe procedure,I'll unsubscribe,but since a fan from the elo-list contacted me directly expressing his doubts about whether any of the people at EMI & Sony actually care about music and archival reissues,I thought that my response,which clarifies my views, should also be shared with your readers. When Rob Caiger has done good work(such as the ELO first album 2-CD reissue),then he certainly deserves to be praised for it,but when he fails the fans then he SHOULD be criticized.This is not a personal attack;how can it be,since I've never met the man? I'm not saying that he's not a decent human being.I'm criticizing his(mediocre) performance of late,as a CD compiler.His efforts of late have yielded nothing but broken promises.Even you Ms.Hoskins,can't deny that this is the end result of Mr.Caiger's recent "efforts". and so..... Rob Caiger is not the only CD compiler who could do a quality job on the music of ELO & The Move.There are in-house compilers at EMI/UK who really DO care about the music,and have produced first-rate reissues; compilers such as Tim Chacksfield,Nigel Reeve etc.as well as independant compilers such as Simon Robinson,and if Rob Caiger's health problems have made it impossible to continue and/or complete the compilations on a reasonable schedule,or made it impossible to deal with getting the legal clearances for certain guest performances on these unreleased tracks,then Rob should have gracefully bowed out instead of letting the fans down again & again & again. The hyping of these CD's began over 2 YEARS AGO.I was once a CD box set compiler,and I've done a mastering project at Abbey Road(The Yardbirds' "Train Kept A-Rollin'" 4-CD set on the Charly label,now reissued with new packaging and a few new bonus tracks, as "The Yardbirds Story"),and I know that for a record company which has its' own pressing plant,it generally takes only 3 to 4 weeks from delivering the master to actual completion of CD manufacturing.There's no reason(barring legal problems relating to guest performances by Carl Wayne & Marc Bolan) for this agonizing process to take another 6 months. Maybe Rob should not have spoken publicly about Marc Bolan's (instrumental-only) contribution to several of the vault tracks,but only revealed Bolan's participation after the expanded ELO-2 release.The revealing of Bolan's participation only complicates the matter of clearances.Do you really believe Rob Caiger's latest "release date" (March 3,2003)? All this wrangling and agonizing over permissions has now gone on even longer than the drawn-out 18 month ordeal to get Capitol's 4-CD Beach Boys box "The Pet Sounds Sessions" released.(the leaking of the most important tracks to bootleggers forced the uncooperative Mike Love to relent and permit the release).The question is whether we're looking at a 10-year melodrama like the one that it took to bring MCA's "The Who-My Generation(Deluxe Edition)" to the market.This is totally absurd. ********** Subject: Re: ELO & Move CD reissues Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:49:06 -0700 From: Joe Ramsey [Cross-posted from the ELO List] Philip Cohen wrote: > I'm not saying that he's not a decent human being.I'm criticizing > his(mediocre) performance of late,as a CD compiler.His efforts of late > have yielded nothing but broken promises.Even you Ms.Hoskins,can't > deny that this is the end result of Mr.Caiger's recent "efforts". Dear Philip, I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. Instead of getting all jacked up and quitting the list, maybe it would be good to hear other's opinions before lamming out. You might learn something... I learn things all the time PLUS I've met so many really nice people from both lists. The music of The Move and ELO have long been passions of mine. The soundtrack to my growing up, really. When my friends and I get together after so many years we still talk about seeing Roy Wood's Wizzard at the Santa Monica Civic (I made everybody go - boy was I nervous that he'd be bad - they would have scalped me!) or seeing ELO's very first shows in Los Angeles. Amazing. If I thought, as you apparently do, that a ne'er do well was in charge of these exciting re-release projects, I'd be pissed too. But I can't say it strongly enough, and I hope that you believe me... I never met ANYONE, including myself cause I don't have the patience to sift through thousands of hours of tape to find that one GEM, that is more capable, more enthusiastic about MOVE/ELO/WIZZARD than Rob Caiger. Maybe I'm talking out of school (please forgive me if I am, Rob) but I saw a few of the mock-ups for the booklet for Message From The Country when Rob was in LA last. As a Move fan used to seeing the same old photos with the same old text (Split Ends is still tough to beat - great liner notes), this package was MIND BLOWING. Photos I've never seen. Quotes from the band. Pages and pages of material. I mean, I've been looking for this stuff for years... and I had NEVER seen any of it. To say that I'm impressed with Rob's work is an understatement. FINALLY... someone cares as much as me about the best group of all time that wants, no demands, that this CLASSIC material be released PROPERLY. If that means that it needs to be delayed a bit, So be it. Geeze, it's 30 years old... what's another few months??? Joining these two lists and dumping on one of the main people that has made these last two years so exciting as a fan is akin to being invited to dinner and then insulting the host. Of course people get a bit angry. How about instead of quitting, you calm down a bit, see what happens and share a bit of your information, which sounds considerable, with us. Who knows, you might enjoy yourself. Just a thought. ********** Subject: Re: ELO & Move CD reissues Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:52:38 -0700 From: kakman1 [Cross-posted from the ELO List] PhilCohen@webtv.net (Philip Cohen) writes: >I think it's about time for Rob Caiger to relinquish his job as compiler >of EMI's ELO & Move CD reissues, and hand these projects over to one of >EMI's staff compilers for completion.After two years of hyping these >releases, Rob is still unable to complete them.... Another crybaby! Right, you ... back of the line! And turn in your First Light album, too! Ingrate! Patience is its own reward. It's fine to feel disappointed that a re-issue has been delayed again and share your feelings about that but don't disparage Rob. Record company compilers have no love or interest in the artists they sell or distribute. They're just bean counters. People like Rob, Lynn, Ken, et al. are very dedicated and put a lot effort and hours in giving us fellow fans quality stuff, not some dross the record company would slap together for the holiday market. Without the efforts of Rob Caiger & co., you my friend, would have nothing but inferior bootlegs and re-packaged drivel from Sony and EMI and myriad other labels with their fingers in the pie. But then again, some people don't care about quality, they want to be demand fed and they want to be fed right now! That definitely smells like baby boomer spirit to me. Insensitive!!!! Someone send Phil a crab salad! pronto! Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: ELO & Move CD reissues Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:52:59 -0700 From: John DeSilva Philip Cohen wrote: > (first of all,to Ms.Hoskins,I shall say that this will be my final > communication to the ELO & Move lists. I've already made my feelings on this subject known since Philip's first post, so no sense in retreading that ground. So let me see if I understand this - Philip feels that Rob has dropped the ball on the latest series of ELO and Move reissues (projects that without Rob's involvement wouldn't even be on the EMI schedule most likely), and that Rob should be dismissed from said projects. Philip expresses this opinion on the Showdown list, and hears from many of us who disagree with this opinion (most of us strenuously disagree). Philip then gets an e-mail from a Showdown list member expressing doubts about the employees of EMI and Sony's commitment to music and archival material - this prompts him to defend people who work (or have worked) for these companies (I'm making an assumption that he personally knows some of these folks), and apparently also prompts him to unsubscribe from the Move and Showdown lists. In summary: - The reality of the situation is that Rob Caiger IS the only CD compiler who WILL do a quality job on the music of ELO & The Move. No one else would come close, even with the best of intentions. - Philip doesn't understand what Rob means to the Move and Showdown lists beyond his "job" as a "CD compiler" (what exactly is a CD compiler?). - Many list members are just as frustrated as Philip with the delays on ELO II and MFTC, but don't see it as a failure of Rob's (I thought Brendan's latest response post was very good in defining this position). Most list members would, I think, like to see the bar set by the exceptional "First Light - ELO" set maintained in these releases, even if it takes a little longer. - Philip mentions the clearances issues involved in getting the "Pet Sounds" and "My Generation" releases done - what makes him think (besides the Marc Bolan tracks) that Rob and EMI haven't gone through similar (or much worse) legal wrangling with respect to these releases? - Silver lining: Philip has certainly gotten us together on an issue. - Note to Philip: "Great Move" is out of print. - Another note to Philip: read jpjo's latest post and think about it. - my favorite responses to Philip's posts: Kevin's, Joe's, and the inimitable Plastic Ono Dream. The Move and Showdown list audience is the greatest audience ... inna world!!!! Good Night Everybody!!!!!!! JD San Jose, CA ********** Subject: Re: ELO & Move CD reissues Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:04:55 -0700 From: "Rob Caiger" [Cross-posted from the ELO List] An interesting view, albeit negative, but one that Philip is perfectly entitled to raise and direct at me, especially as it's my name on these things as series producer. Bit harsh on the credibility front though! I'll go through each point and try to flesh out exactly what is involved in getting these type of projects to the release stage and what I do. What is involved for ELO and related artists is totally different to other bands I've worked with. I'll also attempt to give an insight into why things sometimes don't then follow the release schedules and pre-promotion strategies. In other words, things get delayed. > I think it's about time for Rob Caiger to relinquish his job as > compiler of EMI's ELO & Move CD reissues, and hand these projects > over to one of EMI's staff compilers for completion. There's a lot to take in during that first paragraph alone. If only it was a job, merely involving being assigned projects initiated by a record company back catalogue specialist division. If only it involved just being a compiler, selecting tracks provided from a record company tape liberary or from reels provided by a band, with me merely fretting over the running order and "bonus tracks" while sitting in a remastering room at Abbey Road Studios. If only I didn't have to take months rewriting and correcting that whole EMI tape library database for ELO, Wizzard, Roy Wood, The Move, etc, etc. If only there was someone at EMI to ask why original master tape sessions entered in their database archive simply aren't there or why the actual tape was cut out of a master spool (nothing like hearing Bev Bevan counting "1,2, 3, 4" across 30 years, only to be followed by tape hiss...). If only there was someone at Abbey Road to ask why their handwritten studio logs show original multitracks being sent over to a "Mr. R. Wod" at Philips Studios in 1971 and never returned, especially as that studio closed many years ago. If only the music industry had cared about the tapes entrusted to them 30 years ago... > After two years of hyping these releases, Rob is still unable to > complete them. A bit of an unfair assumption there. I'd define it as sharing news with fellow fans rather than hyping. I'll leave that to the record company marketing machine (if we can squeeze a bit more out of the back catalogue, obscure-cult-band-still-in-the-red-after-30-years budget that we get). There were good reasons why the original release date was put back to September, none of them involving the record company or myself. You can't always cater for a last minute request or change of mind when it involves the artists or their managements. Their wishes will always be respected if I'm involved in a project, and I'm pleased the EMI team I've worked with for over 10 years feel the same. Sure, it's a massive pain in the a*se when something comes through after you're finished, agreed sleeve notes and layouts are done based on the "final" track listing, the presentations to the sales teams have been completed, they've advised the retailers and PR have written the press releases and biogs, and I've booked studio time and appointments, made travel arrangements, all to start work on the next project (scheduling its release to follow what you thought was the previous projects confirmed release date). Those things can involve all parties in "constructive critical arguement" but my view is that after all is said and debated, the view and wishes of the artist come first. > As for "The Move-A Message From The Country", all the released > EMI/Harvest tracks already appeared on the U.S. CD "Great Move"(which > was remastered from original 2-track mixdown master tapes at Abbey > Road Studios). Ahem. Says who? Sleeve notes on an EMI America CD release written by a company and back catalogue division that should have gone the extra mile - in their research especially but also in their presentation and layout of the finished product. If I believed any of what has been said involving The Move's recorded career - especially that put out by record companies - I'd give up now. While it was good to see The Move's EMI years represented on Great Move at the time, I know the remastering could have been better had they had access to the original source tape. More on that later. The technology at Abbey Road has improved considerably over the last 10 years and when you hear the quality and respect Pete Mew has brought to this remastered edition, you will be amazed. Anyway, back to the "original 2-track mixdown master tapes". Message From The Country was recorded at Philips Studios. So where would the "mix-down" have been conducted. And where would the Philips Studios / Phonogram Studios tape boxes be stored? At Abbey Road....? EMI America looked no further than what was entered in the Abbey Road tape library and didn't even consider the possibility that the so-called master tape on an EMI reel in an Abbey Road box marked "original master tape" might not be the true master. And what master to use when there were other tapes marked "original production master" for vinyl, cassette and 8-track cartridge pressing? Questions! It would have been even more complicated if EMI America had known anything about how Jeff Lynne and Roy Wood worked in a studio and prepared their tapes. In addition to an engineer's notes, the true master is usually the one with their writing on it, as they were also the album producers. In certain cases, the original master tape would contain splice points (or not) where they've overdubbed directly onto the stereo master, bypassing the original session multitrack. Thankfully, neither overdubbed directly to the metal pressing plates while they were being cut (as Hendrix did on ocassion) but it shows what should be considered when researching any remaster project. You also have to consider factors away from the studio environment. The Move were signed to Don Arden, who signed the group members individually to EMI, setting up the potential for any future projects outside of The Move. Such as ELO. As Arden paid for the album sessions up front of any record company advance, he had first choice on the tapes. After recording sessions were completed, the stereo masters were taken out of whichever studio had been used and delivered to Arden's production office. Sometimes what was delivered was the original safety copy (run off the same time as the stereo master) and the original kept in the protected studio archive, or vice-versa. He would then later give the presentation and hand-over to the record company - after first ensuring any outstanding advances had been settled. Would he have given EMI / Harvest the original Philips Studio master or the safety copy or even a copy in a standard tape manufacturers box (usually Scotch Tape or EMITape) that had all the relevent details typed or handwritten on it, plus the legend: "Master"? At the end of their contract with EMI, would this "master tape" have been returned to Arden (whether the album had recouped or not) and would not further tapes be produced on EMI tape and stored in an Abbey Road metal tape box container and marked "original master tape" to enable further pressings for EMI to hopefully eventually recoup their original advance? By not doing the research and immediately believing what they held was the original master tape, did EMI America actually manage to produce "Great Move" from a copy tape of a copy tape....? Questions! And we haven't even started on the "bonus" material.... > As for the one BBC track that Rob intended to use,if it was broadcast, > it will inevitably appear on bootleg some day(if it hasn't already).... In my experience, not much appears inevitable in this business except rumour, mis-information and bitterness. The BBC track wasn't strictly a true BBC session track. It was produced by the band in Philips Studios for that well-known progressive rock DJ : ) Dave Lee Travis. Which is why most Move fans probably would have missed it as it would have been broadcast during normal, non-session daytime radio. According to the BBC logs I can trace, it does appear the track wasn't used, certainly not for Travis' programme. 30 years on and I'm still waiting for a bootlegged copy. What I did find is a mono copy, transferred to DAT from a scratchy transcription disc (now lost) that was originally prepared for a BBC European radio show but not used. Pete has had to do serious amounts of work on clearing up and restoring the sound quality. The track was important and justified its inclusion as is, but I was always hoping a better version would turn up. I didn't think I'd locate the studio session from which it was produced though. I recently got access to a tape archive I've been tracking for over 10 years and discovered two Philips Studios tapes amongst a few thousand others. We took them into Abbey Road and found one box contained the backing track for the legendary California Man Top Of The Pops broadcast (minus vocals) and the other the Roy Wood / Jeff Lynne / Bev Bevan ELO line up sessions for the original ELO 2 album. If that wasn't exciting enough, another multitrack session was spliced onto the tape end, containing sessions recorded earlier for California Man and Do Ya. That's why these were thought lost - they were hidden on an ELO tape reel. Thankfully, I'd found the original session track sheets for both songs a year ago in a box containing sessions for Wizzard Brew (!) so it didn't take long to establish a rough mix for the artists to assess the quality and what they'd like used. I think that justifies a further delay while we attempt to be as definitive as possible. > which leaves two EMI/Harvest alternate takes,and Rob will take the > next 3 or 4 years to bring them to the marketplace(if he ever does!). As previously stated, these are all finished, and we are awaiting the assessment of the recently discovered session tracks. > The world will live without them. That's quite an assumption. Anyway, I don't do these things for "the world", I do them for the fans, for the band and attempt to make them the best archive releases possible, based on the materials and resources I have to work with. That's what drives me - I see it very rarely in other so-called music compilers. Anyway, these type of projects go far beyond what compilers can achieve - they simply haven't got the knowledge, patience, experience or contacts. > Go back to being a fanzine publisher,and leave the CD compiling to > full-time CD compilers. I still am, albeit in a reduced role, but I'm presuming Philip feels he is being insulting by his choice and use of words. Anyway, I don't know any "compilers" that could afford to do the quality of work or any of what I've described above - there's no money in it and it is certainly not funded by the record company. In my view, Great Move has always been a wonderful example of what "full-time CD compilers" do as a job, where the biggest challenge for bonus material is what A & B sides to include and what journalist to commission to do the sleeve notes. Sometimes, they even remember to send a copy of the finished CD to the band members. > Rob Caiger's credibility(as a CD compiler) is defunct. Not in the eyes of the record company or the band members. And ultimately, with the approval and support of the majority of fans, that's what matters to me. Rob Caiger End of Useless Information #382 ******************************* [This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. Re-publication or re-distribution of "Useless Information" content, in any form whatsoever, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent.]