[This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. Re-publication or re-distribution of "Useless Information" content, in any form whatsoever, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent.] USELESS INFORMATION The Move Mailing List Digest Issue #430 December 29, 2002 In this issue: * For List Feedback (cont.) * Roy Wood & Squeeze? (cont.) * "Blackberry Way" book (cont.) * Move official video release? * Wizzard on Question of Sport! * Question for new Move fans... ============================================================== To POST TO THE LIST: Send an e-mail to: move-list@eskimo.com Move List Info & Archives: http://www.eskimo.com/~noanswer/movelist.html TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send an e-mail to move-digest-request@eskimo.com with the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes) in the subject line ============================================================== Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:03:58 -0800 From: "Tyler C.Sherman" Rob Caiger wrote: >How would everyone feel if we listed "Flowers In The Rain" and "(Here >We go Round) The Lemon Tree" on all future compilations (hopefully only >two more) but crossed them through and didn't have them on the actual >CD? Basically banning the tracks from ever being put out so the Wilson >trustees are prevented from earning any further money off the band? > >We would then make remastered (plus remixed) versions available for free >download from the website. > >Thoughts, opinions? Rob, Is it a writer's royalty, performance royalty or both that the trust receives? I can't imagine any Move collection that wouldn't include "Flowers..." There must be some way around this problem. If it were strictly a performance royalty perhaps an alternate version of the song, if one exists, would be a legal loophole around it. Ironically, one of the few extant Move tracks available on any US compilation appears on a Rhino Records CD, Vol. 8 of their "British Invasion" series and it is...you guessed it... "Flowers In The Rain". The only other track I can think of at the moment is "Feel Too Good", which is on Vol. 2 of the "Boogie Nights" film soundtrack CD. It's a very clean mix too, by the way. Wizzards, Tyler ********** Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:55:42 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" > Is it a writer's royalty, performance royalty or both that the trust > receives? All royalties, including any alternate or current live performance of the song. Nothing goes to the band or to Roy as the writer. We have for the last two years, blocked licensing of Flowers to various artist compilations and have received excellent support by record companies using alternate tracks such as Grass, Fire Brigade and Blackberry Way - Rhino's recent box set, Nuggest 2, was a good example of this. Best - Rob ********** Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:55:19 -0800 From: Richard Messum Tyler wrote: >Ironically, one of the few extant Move tracks available on any US >compilation appears on a Rhino Records CD, Vol. 8 of their "British >Invasion" series and it is...you guessed it... "Flowers In The Rain". The >only other track I can think of at the moment is "Feel Too Good", which is >on Vol. 2 of the "Boogie Nights" film soundtrack CD. It's a very clean mix >too, by the way. Rhino's "Nuggets II" includes "I can hear the grass grow" and "Fire Brigade," as well as The Acid Gallery's "Dance round the maypole." That "British Invasion" series is magnificent, BTW. I only have vols. 5 - 8, must check E-bay for nos. 1 - 4 ..... ********** Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:56:25 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" Chris Roberts wrote: >Then include with it, TWO copies of a postcard with a full explanation >of the unfairness of the situation printed on one side. They don't care - and I'm not sure if they even remember who The Move are. The money comes into the trust, they distribute it to whoever they like. That's it. By including the two tracks on compilations reduces the price point even further to the artists. Our view is that the only way we will get their attention is to cut off the flow of money. >Further to this, include the names of Roy's high profile supporters to >lend the idea some weight and to be a bit naughty - a web site link to >a download of the original postcard! The law of libel would then apply to whoever was foolish enough to reproduce the postcard - Mojo got away with it a few years ago because no one noticed. If any member of The Move was associated with a reprint our were proved to have any connection with a reproduction or were even quoted talking about what the postcard was supposed to represent (as opposed to the brief details released into the public domain regarding the court case) they could be put in prison as per the terms of the original judgement. That stays in force for perpetuity. ********** Subject: Pain in the flowers or ha ha mr. wilson Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:02:56 -0800 From: Plastic Ono Dream well does the "contractual obligation" compilation have to sell well in order for "new good stuff" to be manufactured ? if the compilation doesn't sell well, will there be no "live at the filmore"? if that's the case, i say go ahead & put "flowers in the rain" on there. how much does "the wilson family" get in royalties anyway ? as for that "move move move move" song, i finally found a computer with speakers in someone's office here at work, so i was able to hear it. fantastic! thanks "rob"! as is the new "trevor burton" disc & the last 2 "rick price" ones. happy new year everyone! hare caiger...hare hoskins! ********** Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:32:30 -0800 From: Joe Ramsey Rob Caiger wrote: >If any member of The Move was associated with a reprint our were >proved to have any connection with a reproduction or were even quoted >talking about what the postcard was supposed to represent (as opposed >to the brief details released into the public domain regarding the >court case) they could be put in prison as per the terms of the original >judgement. That stays in force for perpetuity. Wow, that's strict! I say leave the two songs off. Anybody who doesn't have these two songs already are woefully behind in their "Best Of The Move" collections, anyway. If they don't get the idea how great the Move were/are by all the other tracks, well... not much hope for them. And I share my friend Brian Carter's concern, if this new "Best Of The Move" (please Rob, call it this!) comp doesn't sell well, does it mean we don't get the Live At The Fillmore, etc.? How about releasing it in a 7 inch box with reproductions of all the original European single covers included (I wish!). ********** Subject: Re: For List Feedback Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:12:37 -0800 From: "DAVID BURLEY" Rob said: >How would everyone feel if we listed "Flowers In The Rain" and >"(Here We go Round) The Lemon Tree" on all future compilations >(hopefully only two more) but crossed them through and didn't have >them on the actual CD? Basically banning the tracks from ever being >put out so the Wilson trustees are prevented from earning any further >money off the band? YES!! Let the fans fight back for a change. ********** Subject: Re: Roy Wood & Squeeze? Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:09:02 -0800 From: "Gill" >Ran across this review from 10 years ago, almost to the day. I didn't >know that Roy had once opened for Squeeze. Did anyone on the list go to >this show? I'm assuming it was Roy Wood's Big Band. I did. And I took photos at Roy's request to use for the first Woody tour book. And Chris Difford bought me a drink. It was at The Town & Country club in London which is now called The Forum. It was the first gig after the NEC debut... I think - it seems such a long time ago. The band went out as The Roy Wood Band in those early days. The Big bit was added later. My mate & list member, Mr. Roy Cooke was with me. Maybe he remembers more. He was pissed. I wasn't. Actually, I seem to remember there were two nights... Mr. C??? ********** Subject: Re: "Blackberry Way" book Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:54:40 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" Joachim wrote: >i found it a good idea to have a look into the above book and found >the following "...in october 1968 the move recorded an lp especially >for the american market at olympic studios with jimmy miller. Sadly not. An often repeated inaccuracy. The best album for the American market was Shazam, a year later. Wonder what else the book says The Move did.... ********** Subject: Move official video release? Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:24:19 -0800 From: "Country Joe" Are there any plans on releasing an official Move video, of a show, documentary, or something? Just curious... ********** Subject: Re: Move official video release? Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:18:32 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" > Are there any plans on releasing an official Move video, of a show, > documentary, or something? Strangely, considering the reputation of the live show, The Move never filmed a complete live concert. A documentary has been in the works for many years now and requires that all-important realistic budget to happen. A DVD is planned for late 2003 and we should know more later in January. ********** Subject: Wizzard on Question of Sport! Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:09:10 -0800 From: "Gill" Yes really! Wizzard were on Question of Sport performing Christmas Everyday... well, OK it was the track playback with a fake band. The contestants were playing the Guess Who? question and eventually recognised Olympic Champion runner, Steve Cram as the fake Roy Wood complete with full make up and white wig! Have I got the hang of this list now? ********** Subject: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:43:41 -0800 From: Lynn Hoskins I know there are scores of people on this list who are new Move fans and own little or no Move CD's. Maybe you have an old "best of," along with "Shazam," and that's it. Your feedback is valuable here. (See, it sometimes pays not to own every single Move release that has graced the earth!) I want to re-direct Rob's "Flowers In The Rain" question to those who would be most likely to purchase a new Move compilation: How would you feel if The Move's most famous song, "Flowers In The Rain" and the b-side "(Here We Go Round) The Lemon Tree" were listed on all future compilations but with the titles crossed through and the songs not on the actual CD? (Thus banning the tracks from ever being put out so the Harold Wilson trustees are prevented from earning any further money off the band.) The remastered (plus remixed) versions would then be available for free download from The Move Online website. You can post your response to the list at move-list@eskimo.com, or to me directly at lhoskins@earthlink.net. Thanks for the invaluable feedback that has been posted so far. Rob needs more, so keep your comments coming. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:41:35 -0800 From: "Greg Weatherby" > How would you feel if The Move's most famous song, "Flowers In The > Rain" and the b-side "(Here We Go Round) The Lemon Tree" were listed on > all future compilations but with the titles crossed through and the > songs not on the actual CD? Just back from a week in the Vancouver BC area, so I'll jump in here, because, ahem, I like this song! I think to leave FITR off would be doing a dis-service to any new or novice Move fans who buy this comp. Well, after all, it is my fave rave Move song, or thereabouts!! And the assumption that all who buy this CD (or any other) have access to the internet, especially broadband access, and the ability to d/l these songs is probably a somewhat broad assumption (tho I realize that it's 2003, and that most people have internet access!!). So, I would still put them on there. Are the charities that the money go to so heinous that Roy and crew are utterly averse to them receiving the money? Or is that Roy quite simply would like the dosh himself (and I realize that he should get it)? It's amusing that this thing goes on into perpetuity when you realize that in this day and age, the postcard wouldn't even draw a 2nd glance from anyone. Far worse goes on these days! Just read the The Sun, if nothing else, for a taste of what goes today! Greg woke up this morning, half asleep ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:13:14 -0800 From: Lynn Hoskins Greg wrote: >I think to leave FITR off would be doing a dis-service to any new or >novice Move fans who buy this comp. I'm vacillating between yes and no. On the one hand, I agree with what you're saying... anytime a new compilation comes out, there's the potential to reach new fans. Especially with the "best of" release that's scheduled for March/April - that one will be priced at only £10.99 for a double CD. On the other hand, a statement needs to be made. Would leaving two obvious tracks off a CD be such a horrible thing? If it's explained to the buyer, wouldn't they want to support the artist? Those who are already Move fans will (most likely) want to be a part of history and boycott the tracks. Well, I would. Those who are new Move fans will stumble across the songs elsewhere. I don't know if this is do-able at all, but I take your point about internet downloads and am wondering if there could be a promotional disc that purchasers could send away for, for the cost of postage and handling. It would be produced by the record company... a sampler CD of their current artists that would include "Flowers In The Rain" and "(Here We Go Round) The Lemon Tree." Free, so no money would have to paid to the Wilson charity. Or, instead of asking people to send away for it, ask the record stores to offer it free with purchase. Just an idea. I don't know how feasible it would be. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:18:24 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" < Greg Weatherby wrote: > So, I would still put them on there. Are the charities that the money > go to so heinous that Roy and crew are utterly averse to them > receiving the money? Well, as they were never even allowed a say as to where the money was allocated - worthy charity or not - averse is quite a polite term to use. Especially in light of the Mail on Sunday's recent allegations of Wilson's then-press secretary, Joe Haines. Now, if only they could be substantiate Haines' claims as Edwina Currie did with former Prime Minister John Major. It does make you think. Which has to be the intention behind the drastic action of withdrawing the tracks from the public domain. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:14:54 -0800 From: donaldhains I think both of the songs are great and should be included in any new compilations, Harold Wilson charities be damned. I mean, we are looking forward to THE definitive Move comp(s) from Rob et al, and those songs, with their rich history, need to be there. I agree it sucks that the band don't collect royalties of the tunes mentioned, but present - and more importantly - future fans need to hear these tunes in the best possible format, with great sound and packaging (meaning the quality which Rob always provides when working on any project.) You cannot get a definitive product if two songs are listed, then deleted. That bastard Secunda! Just my 2 cents, feel free to post my thoughts if you'd like! Happy holidays, Don ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:28:26 -0800 From: "Tony Bonnici" I see where Rob is coming from but if the Harold Wilson trust still looks after worthy charities I cant see any harm in the proceeds of those tracks going to a good cause. If thats the way it works. Eventhough the band wasnt at fault, I kind of think that episode was a big part of the Move's history and it should be mentioned on the album. The members get the proceeds from the other tracks. If the money is only going to the private beneficiaries of an estate then I say stuff them and go with Rob's suggestion. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:18:17 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" Tony Bonnici wrote: >...but if the Harold Wilson trust still looks after worthy charities I >cant see any harm in the proceeds of those tracks going to a good cause. Roy didn't write the song to be a charitable donation or for someone to decide on the group's behalf where the money should go. It didn't take our establishment friends long to realise where the bulk of the settlement money would best be taken from. And all decided and finalised before the group got anywhere near the High Court. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:52:22 -0800 From: Barry Delve I think the Flowers in the Rain idea is a first class one, and should be pursued, with an explanation on the cover why the tracks have been crossed out. One question. Does this set up apply to all versions of Flowers? My point being that if an alternate/demo version was unearthed, would profits still have to go to the charity? Also, I wonder how active this charity is, and who it benefits now that Lord Wilson has died. And one further thing, which has just occurred to me, I would be against the idea if it meant that someone who has depended on this money until now would now be deprived. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:18:08 -0800 From: "Rob Caiger" Barry Delve wrote: >One question. Does this set up apply to all versions of Flowers? Yes, including live performances and covers by other artists. >Also, I wonder how active this charity is, and who it benefits now >that Lord Wilson has died. Very active. The original charities, the Spastics Society and Stoke Mandeville Hospital have not received funds since 1988. But various film and operatic societies, theatres, scholarships and other "charities" have, apparently including donations for a statue of Harold Wilson.... >And one further thing, which has just occurred to me, I would be against >the idea if it meant that someone who has depended on this money until >now would now be deprived. Like Roy Wood... ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans... Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:01:57 -0800 From: Andrew Codd I think this is a great idea. Put a couple of the rarer tracks on the Cd and to give us fans even more of an incentive to snap up the CD and make it clear that these tracks are available for free download. That's got to be one of the better ideas i've heard all year on the remastering front. Not so sure the titles should be included and crossed out. Just leave them off the track listing and have it as a bonus web link so that when the link is opened it leads to a page explaining the court case and the injustice of the Royalties still not going to Roy and the group for something that wasn't the bands fault. I only say that because even though it is really deserved such a blatant slap in the face to the Trustees could cause more problems for the band. Oh Sod it, stick to the original plan and if the Trustees want to try to make something of it then let them. Maybe it will lead to it being overturned at long last. I back this plan whole heartedly. Lets see Roy and the band get the money they deserve without someone else taking an undeserved slice! Also I think it is funny as well. They can have all the royalties from the free downloads! ;-) Seems like justice to me. ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:18:40 -0800 From: kakman I'm all for it except for one thing. If the H. Wilson trustees are to be prevented from making any future royalties from those two tracks (BTW, I had no idea they were making money off "Lemon Tree"; man, that judge ** * ******* ******* !) how are they going to get radio stations in Britain, Europe and North America to co-operate? I know both tracks are played infrequently on radio nowadays, but aren't the performance royalties collected, no matter how infrequent airplay is? And what about cover versions by other bands? When a new Idle Race collection is released or if "Back To The Story" is remastered, is "Lemon Tree" going to be struck from that, too? Is Roy going to strike "Flowers" and "Lemon" from his live playlist? Is Carl Wayne going to co-operate when he is well enough and back with the Hollies? How about The Shazam? And other bands and performers? How many jukeboxes are there in the land? Are we making a dent here, royalty collection-wise? I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, here, I'm just questioning the effectiveness of this 'ban' being suggested. I'm all for it if major source of royalties is from record/compact disc sales, but if performance rights royalties are greater, I have to question the effectiveness. I suppose making the tracks available for free distribution over the Internet could be construed as promotional item for the compilation in question and not targeted by attorneys as performance rights royalties not collected by the distributors. I am sure once the monies from are dried up from traditional distribution methods, the trustees will either take an active interest or more probably not give a toss. Is the two tracks their only source of revenue? Who or what are these trustees and how much monies have they've been making in past five years? Ten years? In short, will the monies be missed if the ban goes into effect? I want to help Woody in this matter, believe me, but I would like to help where it would matter most effectively (there's that word, again). I keep getting a feeling that the download distribution would open up another can of worms and attract negative instead of positive publicity. Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: Question for new Move fans Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 22:36:25 -0800 From: Lynn Hoskins Kevin, you bring up some good questions. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers. :) BUT, my mind keeps going back to an interview Carl gave the Birmingham Evening Mail a couple years ago: 'You could say the Move were the original anarchist band, the first punks,' laughs Carl Wayne, recalling his time as lead singer with the sixties Brummie group. 'We smashed up televisions and instruments on stage and once chain-sawed a Cadillac to pieces. And can there be greater anarchy than being accused of maliciously libelling the most powerful man in Britain?' (Birmingham Evening Mail, May 6, 2000) I don't know if there's any precedent for this "banning" idea that's been proposed. But I like it. Banning "Flowers in the Rain" and "(Here We Go Round) The Lemon Tree" from future Move compilations would be a very anarchist, and a very "Move" thing to do. I tossed around the idea of just leaving the titles off the CD, which would be the quiet, subtle approach. Nah. I'd actually like to see a continuation of the Tony Secunda way of doing things. Not only would it make a very firm statement, but it would be one heck of a publicity stunt. End of Useless Information #430 ******************************* [This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. 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