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SHOWDOWN
The ELO Mailing List Digest
Issue #004
October 10, 1997


     In this issue:

     Early Part II vs. late Part II (cont.)
     Maurice and Jules square off
     At least 4 different ELO's...maybe more!
     Tell me about Eric Troyer
     Classical Gas/First Movement


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ALL PUBLIC RESPONSES TO ARTICLES ON THIS LIST SHOULD BE
SENT TO THE TALK LIST ADDRESS: elo-list@eskimo.com
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Subject: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:28:55 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

another thing just occurs re the first Part II album. Amongst ELO fans
there is a consensus that all of the Jeff penned albums, the Orkestra
albums and Moment of Truth are all good quality stuff - Ok some have poor
moments but by and large the consensus is that they are all good albums
which nearly all ELO fans like all of.

With the first Part II album there is no such consensus - a huge amount of
ELO fans find it unlistenable to - read back issues of FTM to confirm this
- Ok some people actually liked it but it is the only ELO album which
really divides the fans. That is proof enough that it is substandard - the
only ELO album which is really really substandard - OK Balance of Power
sounds like a demo and Secret Messages should and could and was better but
they are a league ahead of Part II's first offering. Also this rejection
of this appalling album is not anti Part II bias as most Part II
detractors praised Moment of Truth as being what Part II should be all
about.

To sum up - consensus has it that most ELo fans like most ELo albums but
the first part II album is the only ELO album which has a very large
number of ELO fans saying they actively hate it.

that's it - take aim and fire at me -



                                **********

Subject: RE: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:47:13 -0700
From: Gallandro

>With the first Part II album there is no such consensus -
[snip]
>it is the only ELO album which really divides the fans.

You're new here, aren't you?

You must have missed the threads in years past where people have trashed
_Discovery_.

Or _Balance of Power_.

You must have missed the threads where people talk about how great the
first few ELO albums were, before the pop element took over their songs.
Of course, there are fewer of these threads, because the people who tend 
to like just the first few ELO albums (typically up through _On the 
Third Day_ or _Eldorado_) tend to not subscribe to lists that discuss 
the entire career of ELO.  But go over to the Move list and ask them 
the same question.

You're free to dislike _Electric Light Orchestra Part II_ as much as you
want.  But please cease putting words into others' mouths just to prove 
a point.  If your opinion is valid (which it is), it should be able to 
stand on its own without you trying to create an environment where lots 
of other people agree with you.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:10:03 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

Gallandro wrote:

> You're free to dislike _Electric Light Orchestra Part II_ as much as 
> you want.  But please cease putting words into others' mouths just to 
> prove a point.  If your opinion is valid (which it is), it should be 
> able to stand on its own without you trying to create an environment 
> where lots of other people agree with you.

actually I am not new here at all - i have only jsut statred putting my
opinions across - I see the same samll clique dominating every discussion.
I don't mind that either for without most of them ELO would not have the
same intyerest in it - I refer of course to people like Rob Caiger,
Serena, Jules etc (sorry if I left anyone out)

I am not putting words into other people's mouths or fingers - of course i
appreciate the rift between the early ELO and later ELO but for those who
like all of the albums there is a broad consensus that all have their
loveable moments - again the only album which has really caused a seismic
difference in opinion is Part II's first album. As for putting words into
people's mouths don't be so silly I am not - if you want I will quote from
letters in FTM and other ELO fanzines, and emails of support I have
received - but that would be so tedious - I think you missed the whole
point - it is the only album which is truly disliked by a large number of
ELo fans who like everything else done by ELO including ELO Part II and
Orkestra. This is not something I have plucked out fo thin air but is
something gleaned from reading for the last few years posts here,
correspondence with other diehard ELO fans and letters in FTM.

As for creating environments I am not I am just stating the simple fact
that a lot of people who like ELO do not like the first ELO Part II
offering because it is not a good album. Even members of FTM disliked it
and they know the band members personally (see Gill in ca. issue 17). I
love the idea of ELO Part II but the first album is still not very good.

Anyhow if we all agreed how dull it would be - but it still is a terrible
album in my opinion.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:56:20 +0100
From: Jules McNab 

I'm not going to spend hours on this one but....

>I see the same samll clique dominating every discussion.
>I don't mind that either for without most of them ELO would not have the
>same intyerest in it - I refer of course to people like Rob Caiger,
>Serena, Jules etc (sorry if I left anyone out)

I'm sorry, but if you had been here all this time, you'd know that up
until this week, I haven't posted in literally months, Serena's only
just got on line properly and Rob posts sporadically because of his
workload.  Where'd you get the idea we dominate discussions?


                                **********


Subject: Re: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:18:45 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

> I'm sorry, but if you had been here all this time, you'd know that up
> until this week, I haven't posted in literally months, Serena's only
> just got on line properly and Rob posts sporadically because of his
> workload.  Where'd you get the idea we dominate discussions?

Sorry reading my post gave the wrong impression - I was meaning to
praise the FTM crew for all the great work they have done - my admiration
for you guys is limitless. Without you I would never have heard of
orkestra nor ELO Part II  and the wonderful Idle Race CD - As for Rob he
is out there on his own for being an all round wonderful guy who as far as
i can see has done so much for all of us in getting rare material out in
the open that he deserves a medal or some large token of appreciation.

the same clique comment was born out of the same people posting here a lot
over the last year or so - the FTM crew in fact have until recently
appeared very rarely - it wasn't meant to to a criticism - all things need
to be started by a small group - that comment was in response to a posting
i got which more or less (indrectly) took me to task in a most po faced
way for expressing my opinion whilst telling me it was my right to do so -
and making it more or less clear that it wasn't welcome
a bit odd really -

no offence meant - and i am glad to have sparked off discussion - it jsut
shows the music we all love (with the exception of the first ElO Part II
album) can transcend opinions, generations, social and racial backgrounds
and different nationalities is alive and well

Jules - sorry if I have got on your nerves a bit - i would be delighted to
hear more about Eric - my spleen is not especially directed at him - in
fact I like a lot of his work that I know - I am also a Meatloaf fan so
have been aware of him for a while.

keep up the good work and am looking forward to your next salvo.


                                **********


Subject: RE: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:43:24 -0700
From: Gallandro

>...of course i appreciate the rift between the early ELO and later 
>ELO but FOR THOSE WHO LIKE ALL OF THE ALBUMS [emphasis added] there 
>is a broad consensus that all have their loveable moments - again 
>the only album which has really caused a seismic difference in 
>opinion is Part II's first album.

Certainly if you redefine "ELO fans" to mean "people who like pretty much
everything they've done," you're stacking the deck in your favor.  You
could also redefine the phrase "ELO fans" to mean "Fans who like every one
of their albums except the first Part II album," and you suddenly have 100%
agreement amongst "ELO fans."  But such terminology-tweaking really tells
us nothing useful.  People who like only certain portions of their output
are just as much "ELO fans" as those who like everything.

>it is the only album which is truly disliked by a large number of
>ELo fans who like everything else done by ELO including ELO Part II and
>Orkestra. This is not something I have plucked out fo thin air but is
>something gleaned from reading for the last few years posts here,
>correspondence with other diehard ELO fans and letters in FTM.

Well, my experience with the past few years on both this list, the Move
list, alt.music.elo, and a few issues of FTM, is that opinions are not
quite so aligned as you have painted them.

So who is right?  We have both read the same material and come away with
different impressions.  The simple fact is, neither one of our sets of
impressions is worth very much.  The phenomenon is common enough that
psychologists have invented a term for it called the Confirmation Bias. (I
knew a university class would come in handy someday! :)  People have a
tendency to notice and remember things much better when those things
agree with their own preconceptions.  I'm sure you can, as you have
offered, quote me many things from online discussions and from the FTM
fanzine that support your position.  But it is entirely possible that these
are the things you notice more or remember better because they agree with
you, and thus entirely possible that they do not paint a realistic picture
of ELO fandom.

I don't mean to sound as if I am taking you to task for this.  This is
something that every human being does subconsciously.  The trick is to be
aware of it and not claim things derived from your impressions as "fact."

There is also a phenomenon I've noticed in some online discussion groups,
that to my knowledge does not have a fancy name yet attached to it.  In a
group I used to follow quite closely, for a long time there seemed to be
many people who disliked a certain work in a new series.  Many people wrote
long missives about all the things they disliked about this work.  Time
went on and more works started appearing that people liked even less.  If
you look in there today, this first work that at one time seemed to be so
universally reviled is now held up as the standard to which all others
should aspire.

Of course, neither of these impressions is entirely accurate.  But the
predominantly-expressed opinion can have a marked effect on people's
perceptions of what fans in general tend to feel.  It is interesting to
speak to those who have only read the group in the last few years, who were
not around when the first work was so reviled.  They are genuinely
surprised that so many people once considered this work so bad, because
nowadays no one has anything but good things to say about it.

I can only speculate as to the reasons why the public opinion appeared to
shift.  But the effect is quite noticeable to anyone who was around 5 or so
years ago.  So you either assume that everyone's opinion changed during
that time (unlikely) or you accept the fact that the opinion most often put
forth in a discussion forum is not really an accurate representation of
fans' preferences.

>As for creating environments I am not I am just stating the simple fact
>that a lot of people who like ELO do not like the first ELO Part II
>offering

That's fine, and I won't argue the point.  But a lot of ELO fans dislike
other albums as well.  The consensus that you spoke of in your first
message may be largely imagined.

Or it could be completely right on the money.  I don't know.  I don't have
any facts.  You'd have to do a scientifically valid survey to find out
for certain, and it's probably not worth the effort.  You're doing an
excellent job of explaining why you don't like the album; you don't really
need to point to consensuses that may not exist to reenforce your points.

As I said before, your opinion of the first Part II album can stand on its
own just fine whether or not there is indeed a consensus about it, or other
albums relative to it.

>Anyhow if we all agreed how dull it would be

I agree.  (My, what a boring follow-up.  :)


                                **********


Subject: Re: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:17:38 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

Ok point taken - still as far as I can make out it is the most reviled ELO
album - that is all - nearly every ELO album has its detractors (even Out
of the Blue has them) but it was a simple little point that of all the ELO
family it is the most reviled as far as I can make out. As for me it is
the only ELO album that I dislike and never play - and believe me i have
tried to like it.


                                **********


Subject: At least 4 different ELO's...maybe more!
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 20:43:48 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins 

Scott Pierson posted something on Monday that I had wanted to comment
on, and now, since I've waited so long, it ties into what was discussed
today.  (Good planning on my part, eh?)

Scott said:

> In 1981 I saw my only ELO concert (Time Tour).  Now I know a lot
> of people say ELO was already dead by then.  I, however, have
> to disagree.  Certainly it was not the same ELO of 10 years
> previously, but then, who is?

I thought for a long time about this question.  At least 5 minutes!  I
think the *only* band in the history of bands that has remained true to
its original sound for 10 years (or 30+ years!) is the Rolling Stones.
That's it.

ELO changed/evolved from year to year, album to album.  Hard to believe
the band that did "Showdown" is the same band that did "Rock 'n' Roll Is
King."  Obviously, since Scott became a fan of ELO with "Discovery,"
that's the ELO...and the sound...that he likes.  Me, I'm rather partial
to early ELO.  But, I was/am also a fan of Jeff Lynne's lyrics.  (Okay,
maybe not "Rock 'n' Roll Is King"...)  Even during ELO's disco phase,
even if I didn't care for a particular arrangement, I was still drawn to
his beautiful words.

Hey, I get to quote Scott again:

> - Don't listen expecting to hear ELO or you'll be disappointed.
> ELO Part II has some similarities, obviously, but are definitely
> their own band.

That was exactly the point I was going to make today, but he beat me to
it. ;-)

I really enjoy debates like the one that's going on now.  It never
ceases to amaze me how music causes our emotions to surface.  We don't
simply LIKE music, we are passionate about it!  There are some who think
"Honest Men" is "embarrassing", and others who are truly moved by it.
Amazing how a song affects people differently.

Personally, I think the name ELO Part II is deceiving.  It's a whole
different band with a different sound.  I'm not sure what they should
have called themselves... Bev and the Bevans?  (Just kidding.)  To me,
"Part II" implies that it's a continuation.  ELO Part II has re-formed
and come up with its own identity.  I recently listened to "Moment Of
Truth" for the first time.  If I hadn't known that it was ELO Part II,
I'm not sure I would have made the ELO connection at all.  (Well, except
for "Blue Violin.")

It's hard to say how I'd feel about ELO Part II if Bev weren't in the
band.  But, he is, so I'm happy to give them a listen.  I didn't realize
Eric Troyer was a permanent fixture.  Way to recruit, Bev!

At any rate, to echo what Scott said, if you listen to ELO Part II
expecting to hear more ELO, you're not going to like what you hear.
Instead, view the band as an emsemble of solid talent, each member
bringing something different to the mix.

Hey, how's this for an alternate band name: Honest Men! ;)


                                **********


Subject: Tell me about Eric Troyer...
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:56:28 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins 

I didn't (but I do now) know that Eric Troyer had become a permanent
member of ELO Part II.  Wow, this guy's list of accomplishments is
rather impressive.  I know that he was one of only two outside vocalists
that John Lennon would allow to sing on "Double Fantasy."

He's sung with so many of my favorites...Lou Reed, Graham Parker, Ian
Hunter...

I'm interested in hearing how he came to be a member of ELO Part II.  I
believe he's the only American in the band, right?

Pulling up my chair to hear the story...


                                **********


Subject: Derek Trotter? What you wanna know.....
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 21:47:59 +0100
From: Jules McNab 

Lynn,

I do an information sheet with everything you ever needed to know about
Eric, and some that you didn't!  If you or anyone else wants this, just
let me know.  Maurice?  Want one? :)

>I didn't (but I do now) know that Eric Troyer had become a permanent
>member of ELO Part II.

Yeep!  He's been permanently in there since 1991!  He's sung on some
other major stuff, like Billy Joel's Uptown Girl, and many Meat Loaf
songs - he's sung on almost every demo that Jim Steinman has done, and
regularly sings with Rory on backing vocals.  If you're over 35 and live
in the States, you *may* recall an ad for IBM typewriters called "We're
Your Type" which Eric did.  He's done literally hundreds of jingles for
TV - he has a distinctive style, see if you can think of any!

>I'm interested in hearing how he came to be a member of ELO Part II.  I
>believe he's the only American in the band, right?

He is.  And Serena's right, Jim Steinman suggested him to Bev, as Bev
needed someone with the right background, sound and ability.

>Pulling up my chair to hear the story...

I'm sure to get some flak for this, so I'll give you any other info you
want to your own email rather than the list!!!!


                                **********


Subject: Tell me about Eric Troyer...
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:37:57 -0400
From: SERENA TORZ 

Hello everyone

From what I remember Eric was brought into PART II by Jim Steinman, who 
was originally down to produce the first album, but dropped out 
(thankfully) very early on. Mercifully, Eric stayed! Eric has done 
backing vocals on just about everything from the Steinman stable, from 
Meat Loaf, to Bonnie Tyler, and also the Jim Steinman songs on the last 
Celine Dion album, Falling Into You. A guy with a pedigree. He also has 
quite a hefty female following, due to his "pin-up" looks!


                                **********


Subject: Classical Gas/First Movement
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:11:33 GMT
From: Jon Hinchliffe

I received a copy of a rare Rick Wakeman album today. On it he was
doing a Mason Williams tracks called Classic Gas. The Title sounds
familiar to me but I don't think the tune is. Except parts of it sound
very Similar in Nature to First Movement from the ELO album. Is Woody
know to have based the song on this? Classic Gas hit the charts in
1968 so it seems likely to me.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Classical Gas/First Movement
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:46:01 +0000
From: Scott Pierson

You know, I have always wondered if Classical Gas was used as some
sort of inspiration for First Movement.  Somewhere in a stack of old
45's (do they have those in the UK?) I have a copy of Classical Gas.
It remains one of my favorite all-time instrumentals  (with First
Movement, Fire On High, Daybreaker, Peter Gunn, Walk Don't Run).

Odd bit of trivia for you...  When Mason Williams did Classical Gas,
he was working as a comedy writer for The Tonight Show, starring
Johhny Carson...


                                **********


Subject: Re: Classical Gas/First Movement
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 12:28:43 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins 

Scott Pierson wrote:
>
> Odd bit of trivia for you...  When Mason Williams did Classical Gas,
> he was working as a comedy writer for The Tonight Show, starring
> Johhny Carson...

I realize I'm dating myself here, but in the late '60s he was on the
Smothers Brothers show.  He was primarily a writer, but they often had
him on to play his classical/folk guitar.  I was only about 10, but I
remember seeing him do "Classical Gas" with Tom and Dick.

Did you know that he co-wrote the Smothers Brothers theme? :-)

As for whether Roy Wood based any of his songs on "Classical Gas," I
kinda doubt it.  The Move formed in 1966 and Roy was mixing classical
with rock on the first Move album.  I tend to think "1st Movement" was
an original Roy Wood creation.  (He incorporates the 1812 Overture into
"Night Of Fear," a 1967 Move song.  It's beautiful!)


                                **********


Subject: Re: Classical Gas/First Movement
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 05:28:14 +0000
From: Joe Ramsey

Jon Hinchliffe wrote:

> Is Woody know to have based the song on this? Classic Gas hit the
> charts in 1968 so it seems likely to me.

Yeah, I remember Mason Williams performing "Classical Gas" on the old
Smothers Brothers TV show in the 60s. He was a writer for that show, I
believe.

Much like Woody's later Wizzard tributes to 50s artists (Eddy & The
Falcons), I think that "First Movement (Jumpin' Biz)" was a "tip o' the
hat" to the first pop hit to use overtly classical themes and instruments.

No one blends genres and styles and hints at the original (without ever
REALLY copying) better than Roy Wood (maybe Neil Innes of the Bonzos and
later, the Rutles comes close).

Also the Move teaser in the title was a nice touch.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Classical Gas/First Movement
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:08:57 +0000
From: Scott Pierson

Whether or not "Jumpin' Biz" is a tip of the hat to Classical Gas or
not is not a question for me.  I just noticed that one reminded me of
the other...



End of Showdown #004
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