Back to October 1997 Archive Index

 

SHOWDOWN
The ELO Mailing List Digest
Issue #008
October 17, 1997


     In this issue:

     World Party/Jeff (cont.)
     Theories on why Jeff's new album has been delayed
     Free As A Bird, Real Love & Jeff's production
     Watch the elephant...
     Rod Rooter Of "Bigwig" Records On The Phone... Wants To Do Lunch!
     Bandwagon fan derails train. Film at 11.
     Xanadu
     That train don't stop here anymore


============================================================
ALL PUBLIC RESPONSES TO ARTICLES ON THIS LIST SHOULD BE
SENT TO THE TALK LIST ADDRESS: elo-list@eskimo.com
============================================================


Subject: Re: World Party - sounds like Jeff
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:37:40 EDT
From: Caballero Roberto

Adam John Vogt writes:

>Actually, BANG! didn't come out until 1993. You're probably referring
>to GOODBYE JUMBO, the 1990 release

Yup!  That's the one.  My mistake.  It's funny 'cause all this talk of
World Party has prompted me to go pull out the CD and give it a spin.
"Put the message in a box, put the box into a car..."

>Total stab in the dark here, but my totally uninformed theory as
>to the release delay for Jeff's new album is that they want him to
>tour (woundn't a club tour be great?) and he refuses to.

I think it's because the record company (Reprise?) was so disappointed
by the lack of success of Armchair Theatre, they're waiting for a more
opportune time (when the public will be more receptive to it) to release
it.  When Armchair Theatre came out, the print ads read something like:
"You've already heard what Jeff Lynne's singing, playing, producing,
etc. have done for George Harrison, Tom Petty, Brian Wilson, Randy
Newman, Roy Orbison, Electric Light Orchestra, Dave Edmunds, etc.  Now
hear what he's done on his own."  The album had success written all
over it and it went practically nowhere, despite the fact that it was
an still excellent album.  I think Reprise is waiting for another big
Jeff Lynne produced hit before putting out the new album.  They know
they have a hit, but they have to time it right.

At least that's my guess.


                                **********


Subject: Jeff Solo PART II
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:09:09 +0000
From: Joe Ramsey

Caballero Roberto wrote:

> I think it's because the record company (Reprise?) was so disappointed
> by the lack of success of Armchair Theatre, they're waiting for a more
> opportune time (when the public will be more receptive to it) to release
> it.

Gee, Roberto... if Reprise, in their great wisdom, didn't think that the
time was right after Jeff produced the musical event of last year (A NEW
Beatles single!!!), I don't have high hopes for an imminent release of the
new one.

It's almost as if Jeff needs to reinvent himself (exactly as Roy Wood is
doing with his new Big Band) as a solo performer and be willing to do the
slog work necessary to get a project like that off the ground. It seems
strange that someone with his illustrious past would need to do this but
the sales of "Armchair Theatre" speak for themselves. Reprise (if that's
the record co. it is - they're pretty much all the same anyway) probably
took a financial bath on it which, after all, is their bottom line. Let's
face it, these record companies aren't in it for the art...


                                **********


Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:33:52 EDT
From: Caballero Roberto

Joe Ramsey writes:

>Gee, Roberto... if Reprise, in their great wisdom, didn't think that
>the time was right after Jeff produced the musical event of last year
>(A NEW Beatles single!!!), I don't have high hopes for an imminent
>release of the new one.

Yeah, I knew someone was gonna bring that up.  I had considered it when
I wrote my original statements, but was too lazy at the time to respond
to it.

IMO, releasing Jeff's solo album right after the Beatles new stuff
would've been disastrous.  Why?

First off, as much as I love Jeff Lynne's music, it pained me to see
many of the negative comments about him surrounding his production of
the new Beatles tunes.  Jeff was taking quite a bit of the backlash for
those tunes.  Many a review I read said they were "over produced and
too ELO-ish".  If Jeff had released his solo album then, he would have
been accused of riding the coattails of the Beatles, which is not always
a good position to be in.  I'm afraid this would have adversely effected
the acceptance of his album.

Second, quite frankly, the new Beatles tunes were *not* a big success
like the record company execs had hoped.  Sure they sold to the Beatles
(and Jeff Lynne) fans out there, and there are a lot of them, but how
many casual buyers were there?  Did either of the songs make Billboard's
top ten?  Did the CD's?  (I'm speaking of the USA charts here.)  And how
much of this lack of success got blamed on Jeff?  (Not that I'm saying
it was Jeff's fault).  How would Jeff's new album faired under these
circumstances?

Well, these are just my opinions as to why Jeff's new album was not
released following his production of the Beatles.  Feel free to find
the flaws in my logic.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:54:10 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins 

Roberto wrote:

> First off, as much as I love Jeff Lynne's music, it pained me to
> see many of the negative comments about him surrounding his
> production of the new Beatles tunes.  Jeff was taking quite a bit
> of the backlash for those tunes.  Many a review I read said they
> were "over produced and too ELO-ish".

I've just gotta say something here.  That whole thing really steamed
me.  (And still does!)  Jeff did a *beautiful* job producing "Free As A
Bird."  The first time I heard it, it took my breath away.  Jeff helped
to bring out the flowing, graceful beauty that John had in mind when he
composed it.  It's not like Jeff was some renegade producer.  He worked
hand in hand with Paul, George and Ringo.  Whatever Jeff did on this
track had their input and blessing.  The percussion style reminded me of
Badfinger's version of "Come And Get It" MUCH more than anything ELO has
done.  Come on, there was no way that Jeff was going to make it sound
like ELO!  He was picking up where "Double Fantasy" left off.  When I
watched its debut on the ABC Anthology special, I actually said out
loud, "Way to go, Jeff."

There were many critics who wanted the new Beatles songs to fail.  It
wouldn't have mattered who produced them.  I never saw such unjustified
bitterness and resentment.  And Jeff took the heat.  Yes, he has a
trademark sound that's easily detected in certain Tom Petty and George
Harrison songs.  But I'm sorry, I just don't hear it on "Free As A
Bird."

Still disgusted...


                                **********


Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:58:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Lucas 

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Lynn Hoskins wrote:

> But I'm sorry, I just don't hear it on "Free As A Bird."

The only place it was evident to me was the break strain (the part in the
video where the elephant appears, if that helps).  Of course, since I 
*love* Jeff's sound, that to me was the best part of the song.  :)


                                **********


Subject: Watch the elephant...
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:28:21 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins

Michael Lucas wrote:
>
> The only place it was evident to me was the break strain (the part
> in the video where the elephant appears, if that helps).  Of course,
> since I *love* Jeff's sound, that to me was the best part of the
> song.  :)

Michael,

Thanks for pointing that out!  I haven't watched the video in a few
months so this will be a good excuse to get all teary-eyed. :)

I'm intimately familiar with many of John's demos, which is why I was so
in awe of how "Free As A Bird" turned out.  It was as if John himself
had produced it.

I always joke that the reason Jeff left ELO was so he could be a
Beatle.  Both Jeff and Roy Wood were greatly influenced by The Beatles.
(They certainly weren't alone!)  You can hear that influence in nearly
everything that Jeff has written.  Maybe that's why the "ELO sound" that
some claim was so evident in "Free As A Bird" was lost on me.  It was
because Jeff finally got to do an actual Beatles song... something that
came so naturally to him.

Pass me a kleenex.  I'm going to watch the video now.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:53:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Lucas 

On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Caballero Roberto wrote:

>First off, as much as I love Jeff Lynne's music, it pained me to see
>many of the negative comments about him surrounding his production of
>the new Beatles tunes.

So ideally, Jeff's album should've been released about a month *ahead* of
the Beatles project.

>Well, these are just my opinions as to why Jeff's new album was not
>released following his production of the Beatles.  Feel free to find
>the flaws in my logic.

The only flaw I can find is trying to apply logic to record company
marketing schemes in the first place.


                                **********


Subject: Rod Rooter Of "Bigwig" Records On The Phone... Wants To Do Lunch!
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:26:57 +0000
From: Joe Ramsey

Lynn Hoskins wrote:

> Jeff did a *beautiful* job producing "Free As A
> Bird."  The first time I heard it, it took my breath away.

> When I watched its debut on the ABC Anthology special, I actually said out
> loud, "Way to go, Jeff."

> There were many critics who wanted the new Beatles songs to fail.  It
> wouldn't have mattered who produced them.

I am forced to forego my usual role of naysayer, rabble-rouser and
arch-dissenter and totally agree with Lynn & Roberto. I too, was completely
amazed/enchanted when I heard and saw The Beatles "Free As A Bird" video on
the Anthology Special. And unlike Lynn, I didn't even think about WHO
produced it - it was The Beatles and it sounded really, really good.

...and to my ears - not a *thing* like ELO.

With McCartney's rather anemic output for the last 10 (20?) years, I really
didn't expect to like the songs as much as I did. But I was truly amazed.
Not only with the childlike beauty of the song (The Beatles specialty) -
but with the technology employed to make the project happen.

It is my understanding that the original voice track was recorded
"free-form" with piano accompaniment. To make this fit with a click track
(drum beat), tiny bits had to be cut to make it conform to a beat. Hence,
the rather metallic "affect" on the vocal.

I completely agree with Roberto - the critics had their knives sharpened for
this one - and I'm sure that they would have fried Jeff for trying to parlay
his association with the Beatles into a solo promotion. Sad.

I'm sure that the artists themselves don't feel this way, but as I get
older, I take comfort that things that I really like musically are really
*not* for mass consumption. The people can have Elton John, Madonna and
Michael Jackson.

I'll be honest, ELO-people, I really lost it for Jeff for awhile. "Xanadu"
embarassed me and I stopped telling people I even liked ELO. But with later
projects that may even be seen as commercial "failures" ("Armchair Theatre,"
The Beatles and even the Wilbury stuff), Mr. Lynne has reminded me of why I
thought so highly of him in the first place.

It would be great if these older guys (sorry about that, over-forties!), who
have already had big success, would totally follow their muse and release
new music independently - without interference from record companies. It
would take guts because there's a lot less money coming in. But there's no
reason in the world that Jeff's new album sits unreleased except that some
failed musician who may run "Bigwig" Records has decided that due to
"Armchair's..." poor sales, the new one may flop, too. Bummer!

Sorry to be so agreeable...


                                **********


Subject: Well, Joe. I'll forgive you for agreeing, if...
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:09:41 +0000
From: Scott Pierson

Joe,

> I take comfort that things that I really like musically are really
> *not* for mass consumption.

So far, so good.  I left the "pop" stage of my life way back.  Sure I
still like some of the songs that hit the charts, but it has been
EONS since I bought a record/tape/cd.

> The people can have Elton John, Madonna and Michael Jackson.

Righto, chum!  I have enjoyed one or two songs from each of these,
but for the most part, you can have 'em all!

> I'll be honest, ELO-people, I really lost it for Jeff for awhile. "Xanadu"
> embarassed me and I stopped telling people I even liked ELO.

WHOA!  Hold up the Jelly Bean Train, there's been a derailment!  My
friend, this is where your opinion differs from mine.  OK, so Xanadu
as a movie may not have been the best in the world (But it was far
from the worst and I actually liked it.  And that had little to do
with the fact that I was in love with ONJ).  It was the ELO tracts
that saved the album!  I rank "All Over the World" among my top 3 ELO
songs ever!  "I'm Alive" is another of my favorites and "Don't Walk
Away" is a great cut!  So what if you didn't like the movie,
separate the movie from the music.  It was good solid ELO music!

> But with later projects that may even be seen as commercial "failures"
> ("Armchair Theatre,"  The Beatles and even the Wilbury stuff), Mr. Lynne
> has reminded me of why I thought so highly of him in the first
> place.

You mean that he was more concerned with the music than with what the
"masses" thought?  Like on Xanadu?

I hate bandwagon fans.  I am not saying you are one, but you display
some of the traits.  I am a fan of my favorite football or baseball
team if they finish first or last in their division.  I am an ELO fan
if they release an album that has a couple of songs I don't like.

Try this.  Sit down and listen to A New World Record, Discovery, or
even Time (whichever you like the best) and then play only the ELO
songs from Xanadu.  They're great, I'm telling ya!

Ok, I'm done.  Who wants to get up on the soap box next...



                                **********

Subject: Bandwagon fan derails train. Film at 11.
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:09:45 +0000
From: Joe Ramsey

Scott Pierson wrote:

> WHOA!  Hold up the Jelly Bean Train, there's been a derailment!  My
> friend, this is where your opinion differs from mine.

...Viva la difference, eh Scott? We're on the same train - I just got off
at a different station (for awhile, at least).

> I hate bandwagon fans.  I am not saying you are one, but you display
> some of the traits.

I was more than a fan - I was a nut! When I discovered the group of
musicians that would mutate into the Move/ELO/Wizzard axis that we all know
and love, I completely immersed myself. I'm sure that there are still
several people from the old days that remembered me as the guy who talked
their ear off about these amazing bands. Even dragged about a dozen folks
each to all the concerts - I still have friends from the old days that
thank me for *making them* go see Wizzard in 1973.

So it took a lot, Scott for me to jump ship. ELO became so... commercial. It
really became sickening. I can probably listen to the music much more
objectively now without all of the hooplah - besides, any connection with
The Bee Gees (are they in Xanadu?), Olivia Newton John or John Travolta at
the time was not to be tolerated. As a favor to you, my friend, I will give
it a re-listen.

> I am a fan of my favorite football or baseball team if they finish
> first or last in their division.  I am an ELO fan if they release an
> album that has a couple of songs I don't like.

OK, now we've got a bone to pick. I *hate* any comparison to music and
sports. Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame... BAH! There are no winers or losers in
music. The best record in the world to you could be the worst to me. And
we'd both be right.

Any organization that I have a loyalty to, sport or music, also must have a
loyalty to me. Professional sports has NO loyalty to anyone except the
almighty dollar - so that's out.

Musical groups have a loyalty to their fans not to sell out for a price as
well. I know how the music business works... money talks. But, as an
example, when a band chooses to use their music for things like endorsing
rotten products or appearing in bad movies, I think they let their fans
down. In the mid-seventies, ELO really jumped on the awful disco bandwagon.
I thought, at the time, that it was a blatant attempt to cash in and hated
it. They had violated their loyalty to me, so I was out.

I think that the last straw for me was that awful Jeff Lynn solo single
about disco dancing. He didn't even put his picture on the sleeve as I
recall. Probably too embarassed.

But see, somebody is going to write in and say that that single was
absolutely brilliant and one of their favorite records of all time.

And, of course, they'd be right.



                                **********

Subject: ELO Soap Box Derby
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:37:20 +0000
From: Lynn Hoskins

Scott Pierson wrote:

> Ok, I'm done.  Who wants to get up on the soap box next...

I do!  I do!

> Try this.  Sit down and listen to A New World Record, Discovery,
> or even Time (whichever you like the best) and then play only
> the ELO songs from Xanadu.  They're great, I'm telling ya!

Well, Scott, the reason you like these albums so much is because it's
the late '70s/early '80s ELO sound that attracted you to the band in the
first place!  Do you like "No Answer"?  I'm guessing probably not...
It's like I posted a couple weeks ago, there were several phases of
ELO... each phase had its fans.  And a heck of a lot of fans supported
more than one phase.

I really do like everything that Jeff Lynne has done.  But, I like some
of his albums a LOT more than others.  I prefer his non-"techno" work.
The man writes a great pop hook, and it seemed like his later ELO
production techniques overshadowed his writing.  Heck, I thought
"Armchair Theater" was fantastic.  (And boy, did I catch a lot of flack
for that!)

What I just said is an opinion, not a fact.  I tried to find Jeff Lynne
in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, but he wasn't there.  Oh wait, was THAT
sentence an opinion, or a fact?  I'm confused...

Scott, I don't happen to like Discovery, Xanadu or Time as much as you
do (although "Twilight" is a pretty cool song) but that's okay!  I would
imagine if you were to spend a day with some of my CDs you'd wonder how
I became an ELO fan in the first place.  One of the things I like best
about music discussion lists is hearing all the different perspectives.
To quote REM, "Talk about the passion..."


                                **********


Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:02:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: NYWRITER

>as much as I love Jeff Lynne's music, it pained me to see many of the
>negative comments about him surrounding his production of the new Beatles
>tunes.

Actually, it would've made sense if you stated that "as much as I hate
Lynne's music, it pained me to..." You LOVE his music, so the claim doesn't
justify the disclaimer. I understood what was meant, however....

>Jeff did a *beautiful* job producing "Free As A Bird."...Jeff helped to
>bring out the flowing, graceful beauty that John had in mind when he 
>composed it.

Well, that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, it's an opinion held by many
(including myself.)  Have you ever heard the original tune? It appeared on
several bootleg recordings. The only way to have a true concept of Lynne's
production genius is by comparing the raw demo to the finished product. Once
you do compare the tune, it might be easier to hear the ELO sound.
Personally, I immersed myself in ELO music so much that I spot that sound
immediately.

>...there was no way that Jeff was going to make it sound like ELO!  He was
>picking up where "Double Fantasy" left off...

As I said, I (and many others) immediately heard the ELO [trademark] sound.


                                **********


Subject: That train don't stop here anymore
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 9:14:36 -0700
From: Gallandro

>It was the ELO tracts that saved the [Xanadu] album!

Not to take anything away from the ELO tracks on that album, which I do
like an awful lot, but at least two of the other songs stick out in my mind
as being quite good.  The one that is done with the Tubes, the title of
which completely escapes me, is brilliant.  I love the juxtaposition of the
20's and 80's styles, and they way they both play simultaneously during the
final chorus.  Also, "Suddenly" is a beautiful ballad, if you're into that
sort of thing.  None of the rest of the ONJ tracks stick in my mind well
enough for me to comment on them, but those two have always made me glad
that Olivia made an album with ELO; otherwise I probably wouldn't have
heard these songs.  :)



End of Showdown #008
********************

Back to: Top of Digest | ELO Archive Index | Showdown Home Page

Back to October 1997 Archive Index